moosh in indy.

November 14, 2008

Could I have picked a more tense time to come to California?

Nope.

Want to see the formal Church response to all this “stuff?” Go here.

Cody is well versed in the laws that are in question as far as the church being a not for profit organization, and a religion’s legal right to get involved in politics. Also an individual’s legal right to be involved in politics. And I’ll let him explain that at a later date if needs be.

As much as I want to scream and yell about this, I’m not going to because I know it’s gut reaction to all the hate that is floating out there in the news and on the internet. I can see both sides. Really, I can. I’m writing this from the dining room of my cousin who has been with his partner for over 10 years.

I have seen plenty of GLBT families who have their crap together WAY more than hetero married couples. If I had it my way, no one, gay or straight would be allowed to get married unless they were going to take their vows seriously.

I realize a lot of my readers look to me as the token Mormon in situations like this.

Yes, members of my church were involved in the “Yes on 8″ campaign. So were the Catholics.

“The Catholic bishops ask that you offer your support for restoring the definition of marriage in California by volunteering your time for the campaign or by donating money to the campaign to pass Proposition 8.”-From California Catholic Conference

However, there have been Anthrax threats, mysterious envelopes with white powder sent to two LDS temples. Protests and attacks (not just at churches of my faith either.) There are letters to editors in multiple papers calling for the harm of members of the LDS/Mormon faith.

Had “No on 8″ been the winner, I’d like to think that hoards of Christians (especially people of my faith) wouldn’t be hanging out in West Hollywood, Hillcrest and Castro shouting mean and horrible things or sending letters with potentially deadly contents to places held near and dear to those of the GLBT community.

How would you feel if that situation were reversed?

We (the Mormons) are not the reason “Yes on 8″ went through. Some (members) did help with donations and volunteer efforts (on their own time with individual donations), but 52% of voters in California are not LDS. In fact, according one one site, less than 2% of Californians are LDS.

Did you know that “No on 8″ actually raised more money than “Yes on 8?” Of the $73 million raised, $55 million came from Californians, the remaining coming from out of state donations,

“About 30 percent,or $22 million, of the donations reported by supporters and opponents of Proposition 8 have come from outside the state, according to an analysis by The Associated Press.”

$3.6 million of that money came from Utah.

So despite the way the media wants you to see it, the state of Utah and Mormons didn’t exactly mortgage out their houses to support Prop 8.

I’m not saying either party is right.

I’m just saying it’s no one organization’s fault that “Yes on 8″ passed either.

I’m just asking that we stop pointing fingers and start getting along.

I know my cousin and his partner are embarrassed by the displays put on by SOME of the GLBT community and their supporters. Just as I have been embarrassed by SOME members of the Christain community when it comes to certain issues.

Just because many members of the LDS church chose to support “Yes on 8″ doesn’t mean that we want to throw all the gays into a volcano.

Just because one group of gays called “Jesus a Homo” doesn’t mean that all Gays hate Christians, or Jesus for that matter.

It’s the redneck philosophy.

The media is going to choose the most fanatical crazy people to show on TV because that’s what gets the ratings. They’re not going to show normal people like my cousin and myself.

Crazy sells.

I’m really not trying to say anyone is right.

But I am saying that all this hate is wrong.

From both sides.

(Including my comments section.)

Comments off.

Amen. I’ve been trying to tell people that they’re giving credit/blame where it is not due. Your post states it better than I can.

As a member of a minority faith myself, I find this all sad and a little scary.

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This Catholic sister would like to give you a high five. A-to-the-MEN. No need to lump people into big generalizations and no need for the hate.

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I feel a bit ashamed of myself for immediately contacting you as my “token Mormon” when I was so upset about Prop 8. I didn’t mean any disrepect, but you were the only person I knew who I could trust to ask when my heart was hurting so bad. I think that speaks to how well you have articulated issues of your faith previously.

I agree that we need to stop the hateful rhetoric. I can see why people are protesting at temples and churches, because those are easily identified pressure points.

This is probably going to get a lot crazier before it is settled.

I heard about the envelopes this morning and was so saddened. I am adamantly against Proposition 8, but like you, I am also adamantly against anyone entering marriage if they aren’t going to take it seriously. Part of what bothers me about this proposition is that in “redefining” marriage, Californians are failing to acknowledge the current lack of respect for the institution of marriage among heterosexual couples.

I think it’s unfortunate that Mormons have been targeted so violently. In general, I have issues with religions inserting themselves into legislation, but I know the Mormon church was not alone in acting against gay marriage. I was raised a Catholic and have had serious questions about my faith because of (among other things) their involvement in something that I view as fueled very much by bigotry and intolerance, two very un-Christian values in my mind.

I appreciate that you’ve spoken out as a rational voice representing both sides. I think it’s tragic that something that is fundamentally about love has been turned into something that has brought so much hate into the world.

Insta-moms last blog post..Turning 100

Interesting point. You frustrations echo that of many of my progressive Mormon friends who are torn between their love for gay people and their faith in the LDS Church.

Having this same conversation with my sister, I explained the reaction of the gay community and the protests as so: My sister is a straight, married Mormon wife living in Southern California. I asked her how she would react if the state of California had voted against her marriage, to find that her relationship suddenly had no legal standing. She said she would be angry, and would look for an outlet in which to direct that angry.

This is exactly what is happening. The gay community is simply looking for an outlet.

While I disagree with some of the protests and the ugly things that have been said towards the Mormon Church, gay men and women are mostly looking for a wait to express their frustration and their hurt over having their families torn apart. To sit by idly would mean that marriage wasn’t that important to them anyway. The families and marriages of gay people – the most important thing to anyone – are no longer valid.

We’re simply voicing our sadness and discontent.

Like Keith Olbermann said on his comment on Proposition 8: “They want what you want—a chance to be a little less alone in the world.”

Well said. I often think about what if the situation was reversed, in all aspects of my life. Imagine what would have happened at Grant Park in Chicago had Obama lost. It’s time to move forward w/o mean spirits and fight for what we believe in.

What sets us back only makes us fight harder, no?

Amen sister. As a Catholic, I applaud you.

OHmommys last blog post..Missed Connections

As always spoken very well and very true. Arkansas passed an amendment regarding unmarried couples and adoption/foster children. It was veiled indeed, and I was attacked for my opinions on it in another blog comments. People are equal opportunity haters and its just sad.

ashleys last blog post..This & That

I just had a long talk with my gay deacon last night about this issue. The hatred on both sides astounds me. Haven’t we all learned that name calling doesn’t work?

Nics last blog post..Abbreviated attention span

I think that most Californians are neither gay nor mormon, and a lot of people hate/fear what they don’t understand. There is a lot of anger on both sides of this issue, and there will be people who make others look bad by association.

fo’ sho’

For me, the piece of paper I signed after my wedding was a mere legality. I literally only did it to save money when it come time to change my name, since a marriage license is easier to do so with than hiring an attorney to have it changed. What DOES mean something to me is the vow I took before God, with my husband. My spiritual marriage means more to me than any legal marriage could.

I think the reason Mormons have been singled out is because, despite making up only 2% of California’s population (as you pointed out), Mormons supplied 40% of the funding to the Yes on 8 campaign. Link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marriagemoney25-2008oct25,0,2856145.story

40% is certainly a disproportionate amount, wouldn’t you say?

Also, about the following quote:

“Had “No on 8? been the winner, I’d like to think that hoards of Christians (especially people of my faith) wouldn’t be hanging out in West Hollywood, Hillcrest and Castro shouting mean and horrible things or sending letters with potentially deadly contents to places held near and dear to those of the GLBT community.”

I think you need to look at this a little differently. I doubt Christians would have protested had the prop failed. BUT…if the Gay community had spent a huge amount of money to take the right of marriage away from Mormons, I think they certainly would be protesting with as much fervor and passion. If you see gay people as worthy of the same rights as any other human (such as Mormons), then you can see why they are so upset. You wouldn’t want your right to marry denied either.

Prayers for those in California are constant for me. For both sides. I pray that the gays and lesbians come to realise that this was not an act of hatred. And that the safety of members of the Church (and other Churches that are being attacked) is kept. The Anthrax threats just worry me sick for those involved.

Untypically Jias last blog post..Behold There Shalt Be a Record Kept Among You…

My frustration comes from seeing both the public and the media discuss this issue (along with any other kingpin social issue) without acknowledging that mankind has a sinful nature. If you won’t account for the sin nature, you’ll never understand the problems and I doubt you can ever truly find an answer to the problems.

This simple fact highlights the central issue that relates to all of humanity: we are sinful people and our #1 sin of pride keeps us from being willing to acknowledge it.

God help us all.

Emily at wheelsonthebus.wordpess.com has had a really good conversation going. I was a yes on 8 (really, I don’t believe in changing a constitution unless it’s just critical and this wasn’t; and I’m Catholic too) but we wre all able to “talk” about it at her place (she was a big fat NO on prop 8).

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Casey, God Bless you darlin’.
Thank you for being such strong and wonderful voice of reason.

You are a beacon in the dark for so many.

I can’t wait to give you a big ol’ hug at BH09 I’ll try not to crush your tiny little body, K

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good point Mike.

Lindys last blog post..milk

Casey, I love your openness – in your religious beliefs, thoughts and opinions. Thank you for sharing.

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i definitely agree with mike. i don’t live in California so i hadn’t heard of the anthrax stuff and it does makes me sad that its come to that.. but if your right to marriage had been taken away then think of the outrage that would have shown in your community. why cant they have the same rights as you!! there needs to be a separation between the law and religion and everyone should be equal. if its such a religious issue then how come people that don’t believe in god at all can get married and have the same rights as you and nobody seems to care.

Thanks Casey for being so calm in your perspective. It’s hard to be from California right now but I am not my state.

The hateful actions are despicable and wrong. I’m not sure what the next steps will be but hopefully this issue will be handled more respectfully by both sides from now on.

Melanie @ MelADramatic Mommys last blog post..100 (Late) Things About Me for My 200th Post

Who the hell is giving you hate in your comments section about this?

I voted No on 8. I wrote about 8. And my Mormon in-laws, ex-Californians now living in Arizona (where they passed something similar this election) read my blog. I will be spending Thanksgiving in Arizona with them. That is going to be fun.

I would be willing to bet that half of them do despise gays and lesbians as first disgusting and second immoral. That is, when the church expressed its desire to support Yes on 8 they would have felt JUSTIFIED and not DIRECTED. Their opinion is derivative of their disgust, and not of their faith.

I don’t know, psychologically, where the rest of the Prop 8 supporters derive their opinions. I’d like to think, even though I’m an atheist myself, that they get it through their faith directly, and that if the leaders of the church are inspired or have a different truth revealed at some point then all of the followers will accept that.

But knowing that some people are motivated by disgust and hatred first, and then feel justified and vindicated by the collective action of their group, inspires a lot of anger against the group. Because people know that even though the group isn’t homogenous, its actions and policies vindicate the disgust of the minority, the hatred of the few.

It’s an irrational anger. It’s the same anger that conservative pundits tried to direct against liberal policies and candidates by saying that enacting those policies would make the terrorists happy. Since we don’t want to make the terrorists happy we should also, they say, avoid enacting any policies from the left. The fact that those policies might make the terrorists happy MAKES them bad.

And so here we have No on 8 protesters who can only see that voting Yes on 8 will make the disgusted haters happy, so a Yes vote is bad by definition. And that means everyone who voted Yes is bad by definition. So it’s morally permissible to treat them as evil and do evil unto them.

I don’t believe that. I voted No on 8 because because it’s wrong, and there are no arguments in favor of it that are valid except for those based on directives from church leaders. I am not a member of those churches; I am not moved by their moral systems; I am not moved by their metaphysics. I also think that the separation of Church and State means a separation of metaphysics and derivative morality from the law, whose sole, SOLE, basis is equality.

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Just another great example of why I love your blog so much! Way to go!

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E., Lindy and Mike:
While there are so many politics that could be involved in this, my point is that the hate is not needed.
I am not okay with families being torn apart. I am not okay with any one group thinking they are any better than another. But that is not my point.
My point is that blaming, pointing fingers, hating and hurting others isn’t going to do a darn bit of good for anyone.
Haven’t we learned that after all these hundreds of years?

I live about a mile from the temple here in Fresno and riots and protests are starting up here too.

Hate hate hate hate. Hate it.

Josies last blog post..Empathetic Baby

While I agree that the hatred on both sides needs to stop, I fully agree with Mike. My biggest issue was with all the lies being told. That kids were going to be “taught” homosexuality in schools, etc. That was my issue. And I believe most of those ads came from the churches. And that whole stance I take issue to. Just bc gay marriage isn’t allowed it’s not going to make all people straight. It’s just going to make gay people have less rights than straight people. And isn’t it a good thing to teach children about people of all races, religions, sexes, backgrounds and sexual orientations? What is so wrong with a story being told in school about a boy who has two dads? Because that is the type of thing that would’ve been taught in school. They certainly aren’t planning on giving classes about how to BE gay. (Which believe it or not some people that voted Yes truly believed.)

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It was a very strange evening in NYC on Wednesday when I heard my colleaques (gay and straight) talking about joining the protest across the street at the temple. It was the first I had heard of the rally. Strangely, no one asked me to join them. When I left work, I was saddened to see the large police presence gathering. Police and barricades just seem out of place in front of temples, or on any holy ground for that matter. There are no “temple grounds” here in the City, so it’s even stranger to see the ground level entrance to a temple have a large security force.

The next morning my two bosses were talking about the protest; bosses that happen to be gay. One had attended and was giving his report. (I don’t think that the one actually realizes my affiliation with the Church, such as it is being semi-active.) He said that it was relatively quiet and that Church-bashers were quelled by fellow protesters whenever anti-Mormon sentiment came up. Both gentlemen have long-term partners. Both have said that while they don’t necessarily want to marry, they’d like the same rights as their hetero-friends. They are concerned as tax-payers, property owners, and for the legal ramifications in medical situations. As not legal spouses or next of kin, in medical emergencies they could be restricted from information or areas of the hospital. Scarey thoughts.

All in all, it’s an interesting position I find myself in. For years I have worked with perfectly lovely people, who just happen to be gay. I make no assumptions about sexuality, gender, or “partnering” anymore when I’m introduced. I let people tell me; it’s usually none of my business anyway. In most cases, I am their token Mormon; I’m more of minority than they are. Whenever Church discussions come up, I’m always, always, careful to preface comments with “I’m more liberal than some, and I’m NOT the sole representation of Mormons. For example, I should NOT be drinking my Dt. Coke or swearing when I talk to you.” I underscore the fact that Mormons are just as human as anyone else. We have good people and bad; uber political types and apathetic types; people who question and people who just do what they are told.

Politics and religion are touchy subjects. When you add in the “sex” issue, it gets more explosive. That being said, the extreme anti-Mormon backlash is eeirly similar to early Church history and the whole polygamy issue.

Thanks for all the relavant facts and figures on this subject, Casey. You’ve helped me be informed, so hopefully I can inform some people around me.

Auntie Netties last blog post..Holiday Boutique

Amen!

I liked your post. I think the root of the contraversy over this issue is in the fact that church and state are far too intertwined when it comes to marriage. Marriage is a religious institution, so why is the state defining/rewarding it? Instead, why don’t we have state-issued civil unions for ALL couples (hetero AND homosexual) with absolutely equal rights. THEN couples can go to a church of their choosing to be married in a religious ceremony if they want, in order to fulfill their religious beliefs/commitments. The state will have nothing to do with marriage and churches will have nothing to do with civil unions. That way we can all be equal and have the same rights. And if we want our unions blessed by God, we can go to a church that is willing to perform a marriage for us. Churches will continue to have the freedom to grant/deny marriages according to their teachings but people’s legal rights will not be affected by this. Then everyone can be out of everyone else’s business and we can all start loving each other again! There. Problem solved, right? Any big flaws I am overlooking in this plan? If so, please point them out.

I meant to tell you in my last comment that when I try to view comments on your blog the text is cut off by the right hand margin. Anyone else having this problem? It makes me so sad cuz I can’t read everyone’s comments in their entirety.

I normally jump into these conversations with a “can’t we all just get along… and love everyone and let God sort it out” pro gay marriage thing. This time, I just want to say… well said. Very well said.

Domestic Goddess (In Training)s last blog post..I’ll be home for Christmas…

I tried – and failed – to express these same feelings on my own blog. I simply chickened out, unable to really articulate how I feel as a member of the church, and as a sister and dear friend to members of the gay community. Thank you for saying what I could not.

stacey @ tree, root, and twigs last blog post..“X” Marks the Blog

Casey, You’re amazing. I don’t know how you do it. I get so worked up and react instead of staying calm and thinking things through. So thanks again for being very thorough and informative without taking sides. And giving us all factual information to make our own decisions from.

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Well said, Casey. Well said.

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You sound defensive, but I don’t blame you. Sounds like a crazy situation in California.

I think gays and lesbians deserve the right of marriage.

And I’d like to think that most people do take their vows seriously when getting married…it’s just circumstances that change as time goes on.

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I’m not for gay marriage, but I’m not a hater. I have gay friends that are very dear to me, but I am a Bible-believing Christian and I am not going to support something that the Bible speaks against. I do think that the hatred, anthrax, etc is completely unacceptable.

Totally no disrespect meant for you or your cousin, just sayin’ my opinion. I admire that you are standing up for something that you believe in though. (And in reference to one of your last posts, your cousin is AMAZINGLY talented!)

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Prop 8 itself was hate and fear-driven. I think it would be hard to ignore if I were gay. But you’re right; gay men and women should just shut up and be happy they even get to exist, I suppose.

Kind of related, I think it’s amazing that Arkansas thinks that children are better off in orphanages than with two loving same-sex people. Mind boggling. Really.

We have mutual (gay) friends which is how I happened on your blog (which is fabulous, btw) and I was interested to see how you would react to this. Of course, people shouldn’t be sending threats to Mormon temples. However, the fact is that this wouldn’t have passed without the intervention of the Mormons. I read the letter, from their website, that was read in LDS churches all over the nation urging the members to get involved. Even if No on Prop 8 raised more money the biggest donors on the other side were Mormons… It doesn’t matter if a small percentage of Cali citizens are Mormons….it was members from all over the nation (and my home state, Utah, in particular)that threw their money in. We can’t just “all get along” because our civil rights keep getting squashed. STRAIGHT, GAY BLACK OR WHITE MARRIAGE IS A CIVIL RIGHT! If churches (Catholic included) want to use their pulpits as platforms to influence laws (that would NOT NOT NOT affect their church) and push lies (your kids will be forced to learn about gay marriage, your church will have to marry these homos) then they should be TAXED like all other such groups. Side note: those of you who support prop 8 stop pretending you respect me and respect my relationships, you obviously don’t .

Dood BFF, you rawk the house. Love you…nicely done.

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I’m pretty much an agnostic, and I applaud you for putting up both sides of the story. I think a lot of mis-directed frustrations were used in the voting process.

Great post.

To Amy above: by voting “Yes” on 8 you *did* vote to change the constitution. That’s what it was about. Changing the constitution to exclude same-sex marriage, which the CA supreme court already decided is unconstitutional.

I’m trying to not be upset at the church, because all of the Mormons I have known have been lovely, wonderful, tolerant people. I am really saddened that the church administration, or whoever promoted this measure, resorted to lies and scare tactics to get it passed. I live in California, so I saw the ads. They were terrible.

Aprils last blog post..Oops.

I’m sorry but you are incorrect. Mormons absolutely passed Proposition 8. Maybe not you, or any of your friends, but without the calculated influence of the First Presidency to the membership in California and Utah, then “Yes On 8″ camp would not have succeeded in swaying 52% of the vote.

Did Mormon VOTES pass Proposition 8? No, not even close.

There are roughly 13,000,000 members of the Church. Only about 3,100 of those are to blame for funding the Yes on Prop 8 campaign. (Those 3,100 are about 48% of the 6,500 individuals and business who donated).

So my question is this… do any of those 3,100 members speak for you and your opinions on the matter?

Because the First Presidency made a calculated effort to get those 3,100 individuals to cought up tens of millions of dollars to promote their agenda, then the entirety of the 13,000,000 membership becomes culpable.

Could the members (roughly 700,000) independent of their “leaders” influence and control funded this proposition? Yes, they could have… but they didn’t. Nor would they have.

Mormons currently feel like once again, they are getting a bad wrap… but the bad wrap is deserved. It’s not because of anything YOU did, it’s because of something your leaders did that injected themselves into something you may or may not wanted to have associated with you.

I hope to see more demonstrations outside temples. Peaceful mind you, but when the “Church” decides to legislate the rights of individuals, they invite the world to their doorsteps and better be prepared to receive them.

The Casey Curse – I swear for being a sweet, honest, cute little Mormon girl, you sure attract a spiteful bunch.

I agree that the hate should stop. From all sides. I quit watching the news after the election. haha -I needed a break.

Don’t let the crap get you down. It was a very well-written post.

The Butrfly Gardens last blog post..Life

And all should know The Church of Jesus Christ did not donate any money to Proposition 8

Well said, Casey. Well said.

I’m going to ask this, but if you choose not to answer it that’s your prerogative: how would *you* (personally) have voted on Prop 8 if given the choice? You did a great job of looking at both sides, but you didn’t really share your own…

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I’m not really sure who was being spiteful. I found ALL of the comments to be very civil and informative.

Lindys last blog post..milk

I can see both sides of this issue in many regards. But there is something that some of the the “haters” and protestors refuse (or are unable to) see both sides of.

Lori- Is it good for kids to learn about diversity and tolerance? Of course. But would I trust the state, a school district, or individual teacher’s judgement to decide how and when to teach my children about homosexuality? NO WAY. It makes me crazy that this topic is breezed over or treated as irrelevant by so many. What about MY rights as a parent?

Teaching kids about sensitive topics is the job of parents. And yes I realize they would not be taught “how to BE gay” at school. This is not about fear-mongering, it is about appropriateness. Even a story about two dads? I’ll teach my own kids at home about this, thank you. It is MY right and responsibility as a mother to determine the right time and way to teach my kids about sensitive topics.

P.S. Nice post Casey.

The belief that because someone or an entity donated money to a cause means they “made it pass” is frustrating to me. I give money to the my alma mater’s athletic program? Does that mean when they win I take credit?

And, I’m in total agreement with you – gay or straight, you have no business getting married if you can’t be a grown up and take your vows seriously.

Great post, Casey!

“Changing the constitution to exclude same-sex marriage, which the CA supreme court already decided is unconstitutional.”

A very few very loud people are crying about how their “basic rights” are being taken away. They talk like this is an inalienable, ancient right, ignoring the fact that it was only granted six months ago, and wrongly so.

The CA Supreme court, or more specifically FOUR members of the CA Supreme court, overturned the will of 4.6 million CA voters who voted against gay marriage in 2000. FOUR people negated the will of over FOUR MILLION people. Hello? Doesn’t anybody see anything wrong with this?

On this second vote, the will of the people prevailed yet again, and now the law is out of the reach of even the liberal, legislating judges.

The problem I see with the pro-gay marriage movement is that they want their way, even if it means ignoring the Rule of Law. They want the law on their side only when it agrees with their agenda. Since they lost (again), they’ve sued on spurious grounds to try to overturn (again) what the majority of CA voters have TWICE clearly indicated what they wish the law to be.

The pro-gay marriage political machine will continue to throw a tantrum until… everyone gets bored with it and moves on to the next big news story.

Casey I love your blog!
If I were living in California I would have voted yes to pass prop 8.
Why? Because homosexuality is a sin and voting to allow same sex marriage would have been as odd to me as voting to allow liars or thieves permission to do what they do.

Sheesh.

Just to add my two cents, which clearly aren’t needed at this point…

Marriage is not a civil right. Here’s what the government has to say about civil rights:

http://www.hhs.gov/faq/policies/civilrights/86.html

I’m beginning to come around to my husband’s idea that marriage — gay, straight, biracial, whatever — shouldn’t even be a government institution. It’s a religious institution, one of the sacraments of many denominations. The notion of a civil union — again, for gay, straight, biracial, whatever — for legal reasons makes a lot more sense. This would result in legal equality, and would leave the debate about marriage where it belongs (in the chruch).

Anywho, hope you’re having a great time in CA despite the drama. Indy is cold and wet and oh-so-dreary today, so you’ve just got to be better off out there!

Kets last blog post..Saturday morning post

Very well said!

I’m mormon, active, and I’ve gotta say – what on earth did the church EXPECT would happen?

You can’t serve as the chief fundraiser for a political movement and then disavow involvement. After raising millions and millions of dollars, and exerting TREMENDOUS pressure on CA members to get involved, it’s a little disingenuous for the church to now cry, “Hey – why are they singling US out?” Well – because we served as the primary fundraiser. Without the church’s involvement, it would not have passed. Period.

While it of course saddens me to see the anger and hatred and violence (I agree that it’s sad and out of control), I also think we reap what we sow, unfortunately. And what we’ve sown is a whole lot of anger and hatred. I wonder if the church is happy with it’s purchase.

I didn’t get a chance to read through all the comments, but I’m so glad you posted about this. I think there are a lot of strong feelings on both sides of this issue, but respect and love for family are at the heart of both sides as well. I would posit the question, do protests and threats and sweeping generalizations about any group of people accurately represent the values of respect and love?? I think not!

Barb @ getupandplays last blog post..Kate’s New Job

Thanks for your thoughtful post on this subject.

I wasn’t able to get past my anger and disappointment with the passage of Prop 8 sufficiently to blog about it until after today’s nationwide protest.

Thanks for providing a post I could happily link to in support of my argument that we the frustrated GLBT community need to distinguish between individual believers and our concern that the organized church may have overstepped its bounds. (Allegations which seem both sufficiently serious and sufficiently well grounded as to deserve investigation by an appropriate governmental fact-finding body.)

Lizas last blog post..Opposing Prop 8 and Supporting GLBT Families In Georgia

It is an amazingly tough issue and I applaud you for not taking a side officially (at least on your blog). I did not have the same restraint at all, but I’d like to think (she says with great modesty) that I did it fairly civilly.

I think that both sides of this proposition have or are doing themselves great discredit by promoting some level of hatred or intolerance. On the one hand, the yes-on-prop-8 folks, whether intentionally or not, are being intolerant and in some cases, hateful towards homosexuals. On the other hand, the no-on-prop-8 are doing the same towards the yes-on-prop-8 people.

I vehemently opposed prop 8 and am deeply saddened by its passage because even as a Christian, I cannot understand how we can deprive American citizens of basic rights. I just can’t. But that said, trying to combat hate with hate isn’t the answer.

I just hope we figure out what it is soon.

(And also, I really found this clip profoundly eloquent and it articulated the way I’ve felt about prop 8 better than I’ve been able to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY)

Overflowing Brains last blog post..The box is overrated

And also, just really quickly, not getting on a soapbox (okay, but kindly and just for a second), but for those who spend so much time and energy pointing out that the California Supreme Court went against the “will of the people” in overturning a previous vote, there are just a few details you’re overlooking.

1) The Supreme Court is not responsible for paying any attention to the will of the people. In fact, it’s kind of their job not to. Their only job is to interpret the constitution as it relates to legal issues. They are a completely separate branch of government (they are judicial, laws are legislative) altogether.

2) The Supreme Court was interpreting the California constitution, which until prop 8, did not deny gay marriage. Their decision was a proclamation of what the constitution already said.

3) Many important Supreme Court cases have been won by a slim majority. That does not make the decision any less important or reliable and it’s a little unfair to imply that.

Okay, I’m done. I promise.

Overflowing Brains last blog post..The box is overrated

The ‘sign of the times’ sista.

Hi Casey -

I came here from Liza’s and really appreciated your post. I do have one bone to pick though… you say: “For me, the piece of paper I signed after my wedding was a mere legality. I literally only did it to save money when it come time to change my name, since a marriage license is easier to do so with than hiring an attorney to have it changed.”

A lot of us gay and lesbian folks would love to have the FREEDOM to make that choice. That civil marriage license may have been insignificant to you emotionally, but it gave you the right to sponsor your spouse for immigration. It gave you the right to collect your spouse’s social security benefits. It gave you the right to see him in the hospital.

The religious folks can keep “marriage” as far as I’m concerned. Let’s just make the state sanctioned part of it, which will cost me literally tens of thousands of dollars over the course of my lifetime and which treats me as a second class citizen by denying me the RIGHTS that legally wed people have, completely separate from the word marriage. You – and I – pick up our union licenses and get the same rights and privileges as a result. Then you go off to your church and get married. Your church doesn’t have to marry me, and my synagogue doesn’t have to marry you.

But to dismiss those rights as not being significant to you tells me that you – and many others – don’t understand what is being denied us when we’re denied the right to wed.

Here’s here’s a list from the U.S. General Accounting Office of the CIVIL benefits that marriage provides (pdf file).

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf

artsweets last blog post..Many Pictures, Few Words

The hardest part I think for people to understand is that Prop 8 goes way beyond seeing gays and lesbians as equals to regular heterosexual couples. First of all the people’s right to vote on a matter was taken away because a of 4 supreme court justices who overturned the “people’s” decision to say same sex marriage is illegal (the first time being vote, 60% voted against same sex marriage) in the state of California. 2nd of all, same sex relationships are already given civil unions rights which include, hospital visitation, medical, even tax benefits as the rest of us. 3rd of all, because of the overturning of the people’s vote, this could be taught in our schools (starting in Kindergarten) telling and teaching children the same sex relationship are normal, taking away the right from the parent to make that decision as to whether or not that should be taught to their child. Which again is taking freedom away from parents to educate their own children on sexual orientation. A gentlemen was arrested in Massachusetts due to this issue and the school not having to inform the parents of this type of education. 4th of all, the way that the law stood in the state of California you could marry your daughter, your dog even if you wanted to. But somehow this has been turned into a hate for same sex marriages and while I have relatives and good friends who are gay, and I love them dearly. My first priority is the sanctity of marriage remain between man, wife and God no matter the irresponsibilities of people who do not take it seriously. That’s like having your child telling you they can do something because everybody else is doing it and telling “why, your right, then do what you want”. I am so thankful to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I’m thankful that Prop 8 passed and for awhile America stands on the side of righteousness.

Good for you for sticking up for your rights. I live in Sugarhouse and the anger at any religious group that is being poured out is extremely sad. I have LDS and gay/bi/lesbian friends alike since I am in this neighborhood, and the one thing that most reflects Jesus Christ was His commandment to love God and your neighbor. We may not agree, but can’t we have at least SOME respect for one another? That doesn’t mean boycotting David Archuleta’s album. For goodness’ sake, the guy is barely 18! It’s not his fault Prop 8 came out the way it did, right? Neither is it yours. People need to understand that.

Emily the Utah transplant from the Midwests last blog post..Ripples

Sigh.

I am so glad you wrote about this Casey, since like others, you were the “token” Mormon I first thought of, too. I had an email open to you for weeks, but never finished writing it, since I didn’t want to “tokenize” you. But I knew you to be of good heart.

So many folks upthread on the comment stream here have repeated falsehoods about the proposition, but then many others have corrected them. And then the falsehoods come back again. I am very fatigued over the whole thing, and saddened. Very. Doesn’t seem worth it anymore to repeat what *I* believe to be the truth, when the falsehoods are so powerful.

Still, I have to say:

(1) We are currently goverend by a constitutional republic, not a direct democracy, and the court’s job is to interpret the constitution, regardless of majoritarian sentiment. (Folks should look up all those terms on Wikipedia — constitutional republic, direct democracy, majoritarian — if any seem unfamiliar.)

(2) In 1964 Californians voted on a proposition (Prop 14) 2:1 to overturn the Rumford Fair Housing Act (which ensured landlords and realtors couldn’t deny people housing on the basis of ethnicity, religion, sex, marital status, physical handicap, or familial status). Two to one. That’s a lot more than the less than 500,000 votes that cleared Prop 8. (For non-Californians: 500,000 votes = a mere 1.3% of our state’s population.) Back in 1967, the CA Supreme Court found proposition 14 to be unconstitutional, even though it was *then* the “will of the people. That “will” now looks breathtakingly narrow-minded and mean-spirited, and I’m sure many are grateful that the Supreme Court kept their eyes on the constitution, rather than the masses outside their windows.

(3) I agree, many Mormons and other people of faith took exception to the position of their church leadership; I expect many Catholics as well. One of the petitions filed against Prop 8 was filed by the California Council of Churches and a whole host of other faith groups. Americans United for the Separation of Church and State is filled with people of faith who believe that the church/state separations urged by America’s founders were put in place to protect the church as much as the state. That our voting populace continues to have a hard time drawing the distinction between public, civil issues and private, religious ones is a long, longstanding one. And this issue is a prime example of that blurred line.

(4) Fortunately, a vast overwhelming majority of LGBT individuals and organizations swiftly and decisively condemn the most extreme expressions of frustration (e.g., sending a suspicious — even if ultimately harmless — white powder in an envelope to an organization is utterly absurd and abominable). All official statements, and the bulk of the mass sentiment, have tried to redirect anger toward education and outreach. I read on one comment stream a good point: no one who feels strongly anti-abortion would like their entire cause to be judged by the extreme actions of clinic bombers or those who have killed doctors who have performed abortions. What’s important to look at is the language (and the effectiveness) of the leadership of any given movement.

After all’s said and done, what’s not so debatable is my personal experience. To me, and my heterosexual sister, and many others who are either gay or have gay people in their families, the Yes on 8 campaign felt like a very personal attack. On our families. Very, very personal. I have never harbored ill will against Mormon people, nor had a strong opinion of its leadership. (Neither would it occur to me to want to pass a proposition limiting their exercise of the right to practice their religion.) But it sure as heck felt like a very, very powerful attack, and its orchestration seems to be well enough documented by now. (NY Times piece of Nov 15, “Mormons Tipped Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage” outlines the comprehensiveness of the campaign).

Folks out of state probably don’t really know how visceral and personal it was, and that visceral, personal feeling of being attacked is very much behind the strong reaction against the outcome now. I daresay it’s proportional: to the feelings of being attacked during the campaign, and collectively, the feelings of being under attack for so very, very long.

As many have said, the calls for “both sides” to be kind does impose a kind of false equivalence to the situation. Kind of like when a bully takes a swing at a kid on the playground, and the kid gets up, dusts him/herself off, and then pushes back at the bully. Was it fair to push back? No. Was it understandable? Probably. The yard duty teacher should lecture both parties. But in my view, the bully who initiated the fight is the one who needs to stay after school and write “I will love my neighbor as myself” over and over again on the chalkboard.

Pollys last blog post..Breaking: Court will hear challenges to Prop 8*

Oh! And Casey! Welcome (back) to California! I do hope you enjoy your stay, in spite of all the fur flying.

Pollys last blog post..Breaking: Court will hear challenges to Prop 8*

Okay okay! Last kibbitz: I just saw this report: Anti-Same Sex Marriage Amendments Spark Psychological Distress Among GLBT Adults and Their Families, According to New Research. From the American Psychological Association. Might be of help for those trying to understand the depth of feeling to the response.

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